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09/11/2007 Archived Entry: "MLB: History of the Game: Shoeless Joe Jackson"

MLB: History of the Game: Shoeless Joe Jackson's Black Sox Scandal Court Transcript, by Chris McCartney

In a short series I will do on Joe Jackson and the Black Sox scandal and how it affects the game today, this will be the first segment, a copy of his Grand Jury Testimony. Notice how uneducated Joe sounds.


BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF COOK COUNTY,

September, A.D. 1920, Term.

In the Matter of the

Investigation of Alleged

Baseball Scandal.

September 28, 1920
1.00 o?clock P.M.

Present: Mr. Hartley L. Replogle, Assistant State?s Attorney,

on behalf of The People.

Hon. Charles A. McDonald, Chief Justice

of the Criminal Court.

BASEBALL INQUIRY Tuesday, September 10, 2002
GRAND JURY 3:00 o?clock, P.M.

JOE JACKSON,

called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:

EXAMINATION BY

Mr. Replogle

Q Mr. Jackson, you do understand that any testimony you may give here can be used in evidence against you at any future trial; you know who I am, I am State?s Attorney, and this is the Grand Jury, this is the Foreman of the Grand Jury. Now I will read this immunity waiver to you so you will know just what it is:

?Chicago, Illinois, September 28, 1920. I, Joe Jackson, the undersigned, of my own free will make this my voluntary statement and me willing to testify and do testify before the Grand Jury with full knowledge of all the facts and of my legal rights, knowing full well that any testimony I may give might incriminate me and might be used against me in any case of prosecution or connected with the subject matter of my testimony, and now having been fully advised as to my legal rights, I hereby with said full knowledge waive all immunity that I might claim by reason of my appearing before the Grand Jury and giving testimony concerning certain crimes of which I have knowledge.

(Whereupon the witness signed the foregoing document)

Q What is your name?

A Joe Jackson.

Q Where do you live, Mr. Jackson?

A You mean in the City here?

Q Where is your home?

A Greenville, South Carolina.

Q What is your business?

A Baseball player

Q How long have you been playing professional baseball?

A Since 1908.

Q Where have you played professional baseball?

A Why, I started out in Greenville, South Carolina; went there to Philadelphia, Philadelphia Americans.

Q How long were you with them?

A I went in the fall of 1908, and went to Savannah, Georgia.

Q How long were you there?

A Finished the season there, and I was called back by the Athletics; from there went to New Orleans, in 1910; 1910 in the fall I came to Cleveland and stayed with Cleveland until 1915, and I have been here ever since.

Q Did you play with the White Sox from 1915?

A About the middle of the season I was there.

Q Are you married or single?

A Married

Q How long have you been married?

A Been married thirteen years this coming July.

Q Have any children?

A No, sir.

Q Is your wife in Chicago at the present time?

A Yes, sir.

Q Where is your Chicago address?

A Trenier Hotel, 40th and Grand Blvd.

Q You were playing professional ball with the White Sox in the season of 1919, were you?

A Yes, sir.

Q You played in the World Series between the Chicago Americans Baseball Club and the Cincinnati Baseball club, did you?

A I did.

Q What position did you play?

A Left field.

Q Were you present at a meeting at the Ansonia Hotel in New York about two or three weeks before ? a conference there with a number of ball players?

A I was not, no, sir.

Q Did anybody pay you any money to help throw that series in favor of Cincinnati?

A They did.

Q How much did they pay?

A They promised me $20,000 and paid me five.

Q Who promised you the twenty thousand?

A ?Chick? Gandil.

Q Who is Chick Gandil?

A He was their first baseman on the White Sox club.

Q Who paid you the $5,000?

A Lefty Williams brought it in my room and threw it down.

Q Who is Lefty Williams?

A The pitcher on the White Sox club.

Q Where did he bring it, where is your room?

A At the time I was staying at the Lexington Hotel, I believe it is.

Q On 21st and Michigan?

A 22nd and Michigan, yes.

Q Who was in the room at the time?

A Lefty and myself, I was there, and he came in.

Q Where was Mrs. Jackson?

A Mrs. Jackson ? let me see ? I think she was in the bathroom. It was suite; yes, she was in the bathroom, I am pretty sure.

Q Does she know that you got $5,000 for helping throw these games?

A She did that night, yes.

Q You said you told Mrs. Jackson that evening?

A Did, yes.

Q What did she say about it?

A She said she thought it was an awful thing to do.

Q When was it that this money was brought to your room and that you talked to Mrs. Jackson?

A It was the second trip to Cincinnati. That night we were leaving.

Q That was after the fourth game?

A I believe it was, yes.

Q Refreshing your recollection, the first two games that you remember were played in Cincinnati?

A Yes, sir.

Q And the second two were played here?

A Yes.

Q This was after four games?

A Yes, sir.

Q You were going back to Cincinnati?

A Yes, sir.

Q What time of day was that he came to your rooms?

A It was between, I would say, 7 and 8 o?clock in the evening, right after the game.

Q After the fourth game? Do you remember who won that game?

A Dick Kerr, I believe.

Q Cincinnati won that game. Cicotte pitched and Cincinnati won; do you remember now? Cincinnati beat you 2 to nothing?

A Yes, sir.

Q Were you at a conference of these men, these players on the Sox team, at the Warner Hotel sometime previous to then?

A No, sir, I was not present, but I knew they had the meeting, so I was told.

Q Who told you?

A Williams.

Q Who else talked to you about this besides Claude Williams?

A Claude didn?t talk to me direct about it, he just told me things that had been said.

Q What did he tell you?

A He told me about this meeting in particular, he said the gang was there, and this fellow Attel, Abe Attel, I believe, and Bill Burns is the man that give him the double crossing, so Gandil told me.

Q You say Abe Attel and Bill Burns are the two people that Claude Williams told you gave you the double cross?

A Chick Gandil told me that.

Q Then you talked to Chick Gandil and Claude Williams both about this?

A Talked to Claude Williams about it, yes, and Gandil more so, because he is the man that promised me this stuff.

Q How much did he promise you?

A $20,000 if I would take part.

Q And you said you would?

A Yes, sir.

Q When did he promise you the $20,000?

A It was to be paid after each game.

Q How much?

A Split it up some way, I don?t know just how much it amounts to, but during the series it would amount to $20,000. Finally Williams brought me this $5,000, threw it down.

Q What did you say to Williams when he threw down the $5,000?

A I asked him what the hell had come off here.

Q What did he say?

A He said Gandil said we all got a screw through Abe Attel. Gandill said that we got double crossed through Abe Attel, he got the money and refused toturn it over to him. I don?t think Gandil was crossed as much as he crossed us.

Q You think Gandil may have gotten the money and held it from you, is that right?

A That?s what I think, I think he kept the majority of it.

Q What did you do then?

A I went to him and asked him what was the matter. He said Abe Attel game him the jazzing. He said, ?Take that or let it alone.? As quick as the series was over I left town, I went right on out.

Q Did you ever meet Abe Attel?

A Not to my knowledge, no sir. I wouldn?t know him if I would see him.

Q Did you ever meet Bill Burns?

A Yes, sir.

Q Where did you first meet Bill Burns?

A When I first came to the American League to play ball I first met him.

Q Where was he then?

A He was at Detroit when I met him.

Q Do you know whether or not he was in on this deal?

A Well, I know what Gandil told me, that he and Attel was man that ?

Q Bill Burns and Abe Attel?

A Yes.

Q Were the men that what?

A And some other gentlemen, I can?t recall their names. There was three of them.

Q A Jewish name, if you know, would you know it if you were to hear it?

A No, sir, I would not.

Q Do you know whether or not Gideon of St. Louis was in on this in any way?

A No, sir, I only know he was with Risburg and McMullin all the time.

Q Whom, Gideon?

A That?s all I know. I seen him around with them.

Q What is his first name?

A Joe.

Q Joe Gideon? Do you know whether or not Rawlins of the Philadelphia National League Club was in on this in any way?

A No, sir, I do not.

Q You know Rawlins?

A I only know him by name.

Q You know Gideon?

A Yes.

Q Where did you see McMullin and Risburg together?

A In Cincinnati one night in the smoking room of a Pullman car.

Q Where else?

A And I saw them on the street together in Cincinnati. I didn?t see them in Chicago here, because I didn?t live in that neighborhood, though I would see Joe at the ball grounds.

Q You saw Gideon?

A Yes.

Q At the ball park during the World?s series?

A Yes, I saw him here one day, I saw him in here.

Q And you were to be paid $5,000 after each game, is that right?

A Well, Attel was supposed to give the $100,000. It was to be split up, paid to him, I believe, and $15,000 a day or something like that, after each game.

Q That is to Gandil?

A Yes.

Q At the end of the first game you didn?t get any money, did you?

A No, I did not, no, sir.

Q Then you went ahead and throw the second game, thinking you would get it then, is that right?

A We went ahead and threw the second game, we went after him again. I said to him, ?What are you going to do?? ?Everything is all right,? he says, ?What the hell is the matter??

Q After the third game what did you say to him?

A After the third game I says, ?Somebody is getting a nice little jazz, everybody is crossed.? He said, ?Well, Abe Attel and Bill Burns had crossed him,? that is what he said to me.

Q He said Abe Attel and Bill Burns had crossed him?

A Yes, sir.

Q After throwing the fourth game, did you talk to him then before Williams brought you the money?

A No, sir; I didn?t talk to him then, no, sir. Williams and I talked.

Q Who was your best chum on the team, who did you go with in the club?

A Williams and Lind. I hardly ever pal with any of them there except those two.

Q Who did Gandil pal with mostly on the team?

A Risburg.

Q Who did McMullin pal with mostly on the team?

A I cannot recall who McMullin roomed with.

Q Who did he go with?

A You would see him and Charlie together, and Chick, quite a bit.

Q Chick Gandil and Charlie Risburg?

A All times, not only on this occasion.

Q Do you know who was the first man that the gamblers approached, that Burnes and Attel approached on your team?

A Why, Gandil

Q What makes you think Gandil?

A Well, he was the whole works of it, the instigator of it, the fellow that mentioned it to me. He told me that I could take it or let it go, they were going through with it.

Q Didn?t you think it was the right thing for you to go and tell Cominkey about it?

A I did tell them once, ?I am not going to be in it.? I will just get out of that altogether

Q Who did you tell that to

A Chick Gandil

Q What did he say?

A He said I was into it already and I might as well stay in. I said, ?I can got o the boss and have every one of you pulled out of the limelight.? He said, ?It wouldn?t be well for me if I did that.?

Q Gandil said to you?

A Yes, sir.

Q What did you say?

A Well, I told him any time they wanted to have me knocked off, to have me knocked off.

Q What did he say?

A Just laughed.

Q When did that conversation take place, that you said anytime they wanted to have you knocked off, to have you knocked off.

A That was the fourth game, the fifth night going back to Cincinnati. I met Chick Gandil and his wife going to the 12th Street Station. They got out of the cab there. I was standing on the corner.

Q Do you recall the fourth game that Cicotte pitched?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you see any fake plays made by yourself or anybody on that game, that would help throw the game?

A Only the wildness of Cicotte.

Q What was that?

A Hitting a batter, that is the only thing that told me they were going through with it.

Q Did you make any intentional errors yourself that day?

A No, sir, not during the whole series.

Q Did you bay to win?

A Yes.

Q And run the bases to win?

A Yes, sir.

Q and fielded the balls at the outfield to win?

A I did.

Q Did you ever hear anyone accusing Cicotte of crossing the signals that were given to him by Schalk?

A No, sir, I did not.

Q Do you know whether or not any of those signals were crossed by Cicotte?

A No, sir, I couldn?t say.

Q After the fourth game you went to Cincinnati and you had the $5,000, is that right?

A Yes, sir.

Q Where did you put the $5,000, did you put it in the bank or keep it on your person?

A I put it in my pocket.

Q What denominations, in silver or bills?

A In bills.

Q How big were the bills?

A Some hundreds, mostly fifties.

Q What did Mrs. Jackson say about it after she found it out again?

A She felt awful bad about it, cried about it a while.

Q Did it ever occur to you to tell about this before this?

A Yes, where I offered to come here last fall in the investigation, I would have told it last fall if they would have brought me in.

Q And you are telling me this now, of course, of your own free will, you want to tell the truth, is that the idea, of all you know?

A Yes, sir.

Q In the second game, did you see any plays made by any of those fellows that would lead you to believe that they were trying to throw the game, that is the game that Claude Williams pitched with Cincinnati?

A There was wildness, too, that cost that game. Two walks, I think, and a triple by this fellow, two or three men out.

Q Was there any other move that would lead you to believe they were throwing the game?

A No, sir, I didn?t see any plays that I thought was throwing the game.

Q In the third game Kerr pitched three, 1 to nothing. Did you see anything there that would lead you to believe anyone was trying to throw the game?

A No, sir. I think if you would look that record up, I drove in two and hit one.

Q You made a home run, didn?t you?

A That was in the last game here.

Q The fourth game Cicotte pitched again? It was played out here in Chicago and Chicago lost it 2 to nothing? Do you remember that?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you see anything wrong about that game that would lead you to believe there was an intentional fixing?

A The only thing that I was sore about that game, the throw I made to the plate, Cicotte tried to intercept it.

Q It would have gone to the first base if he had not intercepted it?

A Yes.

Q Did you do anything to throw those games?

A No, sir.

Q Any game in the series?

A Not a one. I didn?t have an error or make no misplay.

Q Supposing the White Sox would have won this series, the World?s Series, what would have done then with the $5,000?

A I guess I would have kept it, that was all I could do. I tried to win all the time.

Q To keep on with these games, the fifth game, did you see anything wrong with that or any of the games, did you see any plays that you would say might have been made to throw that particular game?

A Well, I only saw one play in the whole series, I don?t remember what game it was in, either, it was in Cincinnati.

Q Who made it?

A Charles Risburg.

Q What was that?

A It looked like a perfect double play. And he only gets one, gets the ball and runs over to the bag with it in place of throwing it in front of the bag.

Q After the series were all over, did you have any talk with any of these men?

A No, sir, I left the next night.

Q Where did you go?

A Savannah, Georgia.

Q Weren?t you very much peeved that you only got $5,000 and you expected to get twenty?

A No, I was ashamed of myself.

Q Have you ever talked with Chick Gandil since that time?

A No, I never saw him since.

Q When was the last time you saw him and talked to him?

A It was on the following morning after the series were over, that day in Comiskey?s office, waiting in there.

Q What did you say to him at that time?

A I told him there was a hell of a lot of scandal going around for what had happened. He said, ?To hell with it.? He was about half drunk. I went on out and left that night.

Q Did you drink much Mr. Jackson?

A Now and then, I don?t make no regular practice of it.

Q Do you get drunk?

A No, sir.

Q Have you been drunk since you have been with the Chicago White Sox team?

A Yes, sir.

Q Where?

A Atlantic City.

Q You were not playing ?

A Off days.

Q Did Mr. Comiskey or Mr. Gleason know you were drunk at that time?

A I don?t judge they did, no, sir

Q Who was with you when you got drunk?

A Claude Williams, John Fownier and myself.

Q That is some years ago, he played with the Chicago team, is that right?

A I think it was ?18

Q You haven?t been drunk since you played with the Chicago team.

A Not what you would call drunk, no.

Q Did you ever talk to Happy Felsch since that time, about those games?

A I believe I mentioned it to Happy the other day, too; Yes, I know I did.

Q What did you say to him?

A I told him they would have him down before the Grand Jury before long, the way things looked.

Q What did he say?

A He said, ?All right.?

Q What day was that, Mr. Jackson?

A I don?t remember what day it was, but one day last week.

Q Were you playing ball?

A We were walking across the field, yes, sir. Just before practice, I believe, and we were taking our position for practice that day.

Q Do you know whether or not Happy Felsch received some of this money?

A I don?t know that he received any more than what the boys said.

Q What did the boys say about him?

A They said each fellow got some money.

Q Did they say how much?

A $5,000, I understand, Felsch.

Q You wouldn?t say that any one got more than $5,000; in other words, if I was to tell you one man got $10,000, you wouldn?t doubt it, would you; you don?t know?

A Yes, I know the man you would refer to.

Q Do you know how much he got?

A I know what he said.

Q Do you know how much he said he got?

A $10,000

Q Who do you think I mean, then?

A Eddie Cicotte.

Q When did Eddie Cicotte tell you he got $10,000.

A The next morning after the meeting we had in his room.

Q Did you tell him how much you got?

A I did.

Q What did you tell him?

A I told him I got five thousand.

Q What did he say?

A He said I was a God fool for not getting it in my hand like he did.

Q What did he mean by that?

A I don?t know, that he wouldn?t trust anybody, I guess.

Q What did he mean, that?s what he meant by it?

A Why, he meant he would not trust them, they had to pay him before he did anything.

Q He meant then you ought to have got your money before you played, is that it?

A Yes, that?s it.

Q Did you have a talk with any of the other players about how much they got?

A I understand McMullen got five and Risburg five thousand, that?s the way I understand.

Q How do you understand that?

A Just by talking to different fellows.

Q To whom?

A Different fellows.

Q Did you talk to McMullen himself?

A Very little I never talked to Mac any more than just hello and go on.

Q Did you ever ask him how much he got?

A Yes

Q What did he say?

A Never made me any answer, walked right out.

Q Did you ever ask Charlie how much he got?

A Yes.

Q What did he say?

A Asked me how much I got.

Q What did you tell him?

A Told him.

Q What did you tell him?

A I told him I got $5,000.

Q What did he say?

A He said, ?I guess that?s all I got.?

Q Did you believe him at the time?

A No, sir, I think he was telling a lie.

Q What?

A I think he was lying.

Q Did you tell him at the time he said it he was lying?

A Yes.

Q You thought he was lying even at that time, did you?

A Yes, sir.

Q When was that time?

A That was this spring. We were talking in Memphis, he and I were taking a walk.

Q On your training trip?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you ever talk to anybody else how much they got?

A No sir, I didn?t.

Q You never asked Williams how much he got?

A Williams, I have, yes.

Q What did he say?

A He said he got $5,000 at that time.

Q You think he gave you the truth?

A No, sir, I do not.

Q What do you say?

A No, I did not.

Q What do you think?

A I think that those fellers cut it up to suit themselves, what little they did have.

Q Who is that

A The gang

Q What gang?

A Charlie.

Q Charlie Risburg?

A Yes.

Q Who else?

A McMullen and Williams.

Q Who else?

A Cicotte, they were gambling.

Q Weren?t you in on the inner circle?

A No, I never was with them, no, sir. It was mentioned to me in Boston. As I told you before, they asked me what would I consider, $10,000? And I said no, then they offered me twenty.

Q Who mentioned it first to you

A Gandil.

Q Who was with you?

A We were all alone.

Q What did he say?

A He asked me would I consider $10,000 to frame up something and I asked him frame what? And he told me and I said no.

Q What did he say?

A Just walked away from me, and when I returned here to Chicago he told me that he would give me twenty and I said no again, and on the bridge where you go into the club house he told me I could either take it or let it alone, they were going through.

Q What did they say?

A They said, ?You might as well say yes or say no and play ball or anything you want.? I told them I would take their word.

Q What else did you say?

A Nothing.

Q Did you talk to anyone else about it?

A That?s all I talked to.

Q Did you ever talk to Buck Weaver about it?

A No, sir, I never talked to Buck Weaver, never talked very much.

Q Did you know the time Buck was in on the deal?

A They told me he was; he never told me himself.

Q Who told you?

A Chick told me.

Q Did Mrs. Jackson ever talk to Mrs. Weaver about it that you know of?

A No, sir, not that I know of; no, sir.

Q Is Mrs. Jackson a friend of Mrs. Weaver?s, and did they chum together frequently ? or did they?

A They are all chummy there on the ball ground, sit together there on the stand, most all the ball players? wives sit together.

Q Who did Mrs. Jackson sit with most?

A Mrs. Williams and her sit together.

Q Did Mrs. Jackson talk to Mrs. Williams about it?

A Not that I know of.

Q Did Mrs. Williams ever talk to Mrs. Jackson about it?

A I don?t know, they never talked when I was around, I don?t know what they did when I wasn?t around.

Q Go back to Attel and Burns, just what do you know about them?

A All I know is what Gandil told me over there, I talked to Bill myself later.

Q What did you talk to Burns later?

A It was the day the World?s Series started.

Q What did you say to him and what did he say to you?

A I met him in the lobby of the hotel, we sat there; I can?t remember the name of the hotel.

Q Sinton Hotel?

A Sinton Hotel, yes.

Q That is in Cincinnati?

A Yes. I said, ?How is everything??

Q What did he say?

A He said, ?Everything is fine.?

Q Then what happened?

A He told me about this stuff and I didn?t know so much, I hadn?t been around and I didn?t know so much. He said, ?Where is Chick?? I said, ?I don?t know.? He walked away from me. I didn?t know enough to talk to him about what they were going to plan or what they had planned, I wouldn?t know it if I had seen him, I only knew what I had been told, that?s all I knew.

Q Who was the third party in with Burns and Attel?

A I don?t know their names, I know there was three names.

THE FOREMAN:

Q What made you think that Gandil was double-crossing you, rather than Attel and Burns?

A What made think it was, Gandil going out on the coast, so I was told, I was surmising what I heard, they came back and told me he had a summer home, big automobile, doesn?t do a lick of work; I know I can?t do that way.

MR. REPLOGLE:

Q In other words, if he double crossed you fellows he couldn?t come back and face them, and he plenty of money to stay out there. It wasn?t at the time that you thought Gandil was double crossing you, you thought Gandil was telling the truth, is that right?

A No, I told Williams after the first day it was a crooked deal all the way through, Gandil was not on the square with us.

Q Had you ever played crooked baseball before this?

A No, sir, I never had.

Q Did anybody ever approach you to throw a game before this?

A No, sir, never did.

Q Did anybody approach you to throw a game since that time, to throw the World?s Series?

A No, sir.

Q Do you have any suspicion about the White Sox, any of the players throw any of the games this summer?

A Well, there have been some funny looking games, runs, I could have just my own belief about it, I wouldn?t accuse the men.

Q Where at?

A A couple in New York, this last Eastern trip, looked bad, but I couldn?t come out and open and bold and accuse anybody of throwing those games.

Q Who pitched?

A Williams got one awful beating up there, 25 to something there.

Q Who else?

A I don?t remember whether Cicotte started the game there or not.

Q Do you remember the last series you played in Boston? Last three straight games, did any of those games look suspicious to you?

A There was a lot of funny pitching, lot of walking.

Q Who was pitching those games?

A Kerr and Williams and Cicotte.

Q Was Kerr in on this in any way, do you think?

A I don?t think so.

Q Were any of the other six players in it except the ones we have mentioned?

A Not to my knowledge.

Q Do you remember the Washington Series here the last time Washington played here, that you lost three straight games?

A No, sir.

Q Did any of those games look suspicious to you?

A I didn?t pay any attention to them, looking for errors, and that, I was out trying to beat them.

Q Was anything whispered around the club that you know of, that you should beat New York and then drop these games for those other teams so that Cleveland would win?

A No, sir, I never heard that.

Q Did you hear anything in your ball team to the effect that if the White Sox would take second place and would get part of the World?s Series money because you won second place in the pennant race and then get the City Series money, that you would make more money than if you won the pennant and won the World?s Series?

A No, sir.

Q Did any of the players ever tell you that?

A No, sir, never told me that.

Q Did that ever occur to you, yourself?

A No sir. I wanted to win, this year, above all times.

Q Why?

A Because ? I wanted to get in there and try and beat some National League club to death, that?s what I wanted to do.

Q You didn?t want to do that so bad last year, did you?

A Well, down in my heart I did, yes.

Q Did you hear any of the players that mentioned that proposition to you that I have just mentioned?

A No, not to me, no, sir; they have not.

Q Did you write and ask him for the other $15,000?

A No, sir.

Q Why didn?t you?

A I didn?t think it would do any good, I didn?t pay any attention to that.

Q Did you ever talk to Claude Williams about it since the series?

A We have talked about it once or twice, yes.

Q When?

A Sometime this summer, I don?t remember whom it was.

Q In what city, if you can recall?

A I think it was here, in Chicago.

Q Where in Chicago, at the ballpark?

A No, we were out riding in his car.

Q What did you say to him and what did he say to you?

A We were just talking about how funny it looked that Gandil didn?t come back, and he must have made an awful lot out of it, crossed up the boys. We both decided he crssed them up.

Q You think now Williams may have crossed you, too?

A Well, dealing with crooks, you know, you get croked every way. This is my first experience and last.

Q Where else did you talk to Williams, outside of the time you were out riding in his car?

A Somewhere we were at, I believe in Washington.

Q When was that?

A That was this summer, I think.

Q How long ago?

A I think it was the second Eastern trip.

Q What did you say to him at that time, and what did he say to you?

A We just brought up the World?s Series, I told him what a damned fool I though I was, and he was of the same opinion, so we just let it go at that.

Q Does your contract with the Sox Baseball team call for $6,000?

A $8,000.

Q What party of the money did you get when you were sold by Cleveland to Comiskey?

A I think they gave me $1,000 out of the sale.

Q That?s all you got out of it, just $1,000?

A Yes.

Q Do you know how much Mr. Comiskey paid the Cleveland Club for you?

A I do not, no, sir.

Q You knew it was a big sum of money, did you?

A So they said.

Q You were satisfied with $8,000 a year, were you?

A That?s all I could get out of them.

Q Did you get $8,000 in 1919?

A No, sir.

Q What did you get in that year, that was last year?

A I believe they gave me $6,000, last year.

Q That is for the season, not for the year?

A Yes, just the playing season, yes, sir.

Q That also includes all your expenses on the trips, doesn?t it?

A Yes, sir.

Q Railroad fare, board, room end so forth?

A Railroad, fare, room and board.

Q You were pretty well satisfied with that, weren?t you?

A They wouldn?t give you any more, that?s all you could get. I was pretty lucky to get a contract like that with him when I came over here.

Q What were you getting with Cleveland?

A I was getting six the last year, and I had been in that automobile wreck, and it looked like I was through as a ball player.

Q That automobile wreck in Cleveland?

A Yes; I had my leg all tore up, my knee cap came out, it looked like I would be through as a ball player.

Q $6,000 is the most you ever got until this year, is that right?

(NO ANSWER)

Q Did you ever talk to any of the other men about this, now, that I have not asked you about?

A No, sir.

Q Do you know anything more about it than I have asked you?

A No, sir, I don?t believe I do.

Q Can you think of anything else of importance that I have not asked you?

A This other fellow, if I could think of his name, I can?t think of his name.

Q Did Cicotte ever tell you who paid him the money?

A He told me about somebody paying him money, yes; but I don?t know their names, never did know any of their names, except Bill Burns and Abe Attell, that?s the only two names that I know. I did not attend the meetings.

Q You say Williams gave you your money; what ball player paid Cicotte his money?

A These gamblers paid him, I think, all along, from what I learn.

Q Did Williams ever tell you who paid him?

A Never did.

Q Did you ever ask Williams where he got this $5,000?

A Yes.

Q What did he say?

A Up at Gandil?s apartment, he said.

Q Have you ever talked to Burns since the World?s Series?

A No, sir.

Q Do you know where he lives, where he is?

A No, sir.

Q You talked to Gideon this summer?

A Yes; ?Hello, how are you?? and something like that.

Q Do you now whether or not Gideon is in on the deal?

A No, sir, I do not.

Q Do you think he was?

(NO ANSWER)

Q Does Williams know where you are now?

A I don?t think so.

MR. REPLOCLE: It is an off day, no game today

(Whereupon the Grand Jury adjourned to Wednesday,

September 29, 1920, at 9:30 o?clock A.M.)

The original courtroom transcript (the one completed using the testimony from the courtroom on September 29, 1920 at 9:30 a.m.) was done by:

E. A. EULASS & CO.
COURT AND GENERAL
STENOGRAPHIC REPORTING
NOTARIES.

1105 ASHLAND BLOCK
CHICAGO

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